The Gibson ES-335

PAT APPLD next to later patent number Kluson tuners. The PAT APPLD had a different plastic tip that was less likely to deteriorate. By 59, they were all patent number

It’s worth keeping track of what changes occurred in the timeline of ES guitars and when they occurred especially when you’re trying to date these guitars. As I’ve said about a zillion times before, changes didn’t happen on January 1 of a given year. They happened when they needed to happen and the changes were usually gradual, taking place over the course of weeks or months. It was never PAFs of December 31 and patent numbers on January 1. The pickup timeline is full of overlaps and erroneous “conventional wisdom”. The tuner timeline is a little easier to document but there are still some commonly held beliefs that need to be addressed.

Let’ start with 335’s. It’s pretty simple, really. Klusons from day one and that never changed. In 1981, they went to Grovers but we don’t really deal with “new” guitars from the 80’s (I can’t believe 1980 was 40 years ago). Klusons, while always the tuner of choice on a 355, went through all sorts of changes in the 50’s from single lines with no hole for the tuner key shaft to no lines with that hole to single lines with the hole which is where we begin in 1958. Wait a second. What does single line mean? You can’t imagine how often I get asked this. It’s simple. The words “Kluson Deluxe” engraved on the back of the housing are on a single line down the middle of the housing. Double line would have the same words engraved on two vertical lines. Then there single ring and double ring. This refers to the tuning key tips. Single ring had one “ring” a circular element at the inside end of the tuner top. Double ring tuners had 2 rings. The photos make it clear if my description doesn’t.

Let’s kill two birds here. Big oil hole (1958-early 60) on the left with a single ring tip. On the right, small hole with a shrunken double ring tip. Double ring tips started in mid 60 or so.

1958-1960 (mid year): Single line single ring nickel Klusons. 1960-late 1964: Single line, double ring Kluson. Late 1964-1968: Double line, double ring Kluson 1969 -1980: Double line, double ring “Gibson Deluxe”. Same tuner as Kluson Deluxe but the text reads Gibson Deluxe.

But wait. It isn’t quite that simple. The SLSR (single line single ring) Klusons in 58 are different from the ones in 59 and early 60 and this is where a lot of misconceptions arise. In most of 58, the tuner says PAT APPLD on the side of the plate that goes against the headstock when installed. These have a large oil hole and tips that tend to stay intact, that is they don’t shrink or turn to dust like so many later ones do. At around the time that they started putting the patent number on the plate “D169400”, they also changed the formulation of the plastic in the tips. This occurred over a period of months, I suspect, at the end of 1958. If your 58 has shrunken tips, check the size of the oil hole. If it’s small, the tuners aren’t original. If it has a patent number, your 58 should be a very late one. Tuners get changed so often that you’re more likely to get correct tuners than original tuners or so it seems. The small oil hole really doesn’t show up until early 60. The tips still shrink however. In fact, they didn’t change the tip plastic formulation again until around 1965. While I don’t see as many double ring (mid 60 and later) Klusons with shrunken tips, I see enough to figure the plastic is the same as a 59.

Same tuner, different text. “Gibson Deluxe” began showing up in 69, although you can find 69’s with the Kluson Deluxe designation as well. Transitions never occurred overnight. Gold 345 tuners always had single rings.

ES-345’s follow a somewhat different timeline but the situation with the tips is pretty much the same. The big difference is that they never used double ring tips on 345’s. I’ve seen a few but I’m guessing they had their tips changed. There are no 58 345’s, so we start in 59. The 345 was discontinued in 1983. Here’s the timeline:

1959-1964: Single line single ring gold. Big oil hole in 59 and much of 60. Small oil hole after that. Tips that deteriorate right up to 65. 1965-1969: Double line Kluson Deluxe single ring gold. 1969-1980: Gibson Deluxe double line, single ring gold.

Finally, we get to the ES-355 which is the easiest of all to understand. 1959-late 1963: Gold factory Grover Rotomatics marked PAT PEND. Late 1963-1982: Gold Kluson “wafflebacks” with metal buttons. No oil holes in wafflebacks or Grovers.

ES-355’s from 58-late 63 had “Pat Pend” Grovers. I don’t have a set of gold ones at the moment but the chrome one in the photo shows the Pat Pend designation. It can be in a heavy deep font like this or much lighter. On the right is a gold Kluson waffleback. These were used on 355’s from late 63 until the 355 was discontinued in 1980.

It is worth noting that tuners are the most frequently changed part on 335’s and 345’s. This is mostly because so many Gibsons had nut slots that were cut too small and the strings would bind in the nut slot if you did a lot of string bending. We all thought it was the tuners-Klusons were generally regarded as inferior in the 60’s and many of us who played these guitars back in the day (like me) switched to Grovers. It didn’t fix the problem but the damage was done and we eventually figured out that a little graphite in the nut slot was all we needed. By the 80’s, folks were still doing it but Schallers were the tuner of choice. Folks are probably still doing it to their new guitars. It’s also worth noting that guitar players are notorious tinkers. We will tweak and adjust and swap out parts in the hope of finally getting the tone that’s in our heads. I figured out long ago that the tone comes mostly from your hands.

Nice clean set of unmolested PAFs. Note how clean the solder is and how perfectly straight the edges of the cover are. Unmolested pickups will usually have no flux around the solder and the solder will be duller than new solder would be

It can be hard to tell the orange poly windings from the purple enamel coated ones in a flash photo but these are the purple ones-more brown really. The red ones are very coppery looking. This would be a PAF or an early patent number. A short magnet PAF and an early patent are identical except for the sticker.

I’m constantly searching for parts on the internet and I’m generally appalled at the descriptions some sellers write. It’s not that they describe the parts incorrectly, it’s that so many folks use the “wishful thinking” approach to dating them. My knowledge of ES guitars and their parts comes from only one source and that source is simple observation. I read everything I could find but most of what I found was full of errors. In fact the thing that started me on my ES-335 web site was a glaring error on what was (and to an extent still is) the best place to go to learn about vintage guitars. That site states: 1968 Gibson ES-335 guitar specs: Neck size increases back to 1 11/16″ with a decently size back shape. It didn’t. If the premiere vintage guitar site has that wrong, what other misinformation is out there? Plenty.

Printed information is very useful but if your observations don’t back it up, it usefulness becomes suspect. OK, enough explanation. What do folks get wrong? Let’s start with pickups. I’ve owned somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 1964 ES-335’s and probably at least 25 ’65’s. I don’t open pickups if they are factory sealed but I do open them if they have been opened in the past-if only to clean up the solder. I have never seen a T-top in a 65, let alone a 63. I’ve also never seen a poly wound pre T pickup earlier than 65. And yet, I read in ads for poly wound pre T-tops that they were in use from 63 until 65. They were not. I have a 69 in stock right now that has pre T-tops. I’ve never seen a poly winding patent number with a nickel cover unless it’s been messed with.

My experience tells me that nickel PAFs ended in 64 and they are rare in 64. Most 64’s have early enamel wound patents and none (that I’ve found) have poly windings or the black and white leads. I hear of gold PAFs showing up as late as 67. I suppose that’s possible-my experience with 67’s is limited. I’ve never seen one after 65. The earliest T-top I’ve ever found was in a 66. The latest pre t-top was in a 69 although they could have even shown up in 70. So, there is clearly quite a lot of overlap. The non gold pickup timeline as I see it is: Long magnet PAF 58-early 61. Short magnet PAF 60 (overlap with long magnet)-64 (rare). Enamel patent: 62 (overlap with PAF)-65 (overlap with poly). Poly patent: 65 (overlap with enamel)-70 (overlap with T). T-top: 66-79. The gold timeline is the nearly the same but has longer overlap. PAFs after 63 are rare. Where gold differs most is the enamel wound patents. They extend well into 65 and I’ve seen a few in 66.

Part of the problem with dating parts is the fact that they can be changed without much evidence. Pickups require re-soldering when changed, so it isn’t hard to tell if a pickup has been out of a guitar. The problem is that nobody wants to pull the harness of a 335 to check. It can be a lot of work. I almost always pull the harness when I get a “new” guitar. I check the solder at the pots, I check the solder on the covers. It isn’t hard to re-solder a pickup cover and make it look original, so look at the sides of the covers…if they are bent or dented at all, they’ve been opened. Changed pickups are really common. Les Paul guys have been scavenging double whites for decades, largely out of 335’s and 175 but also out of 345’s and 355’s. They pull the covers anyway and it’s really easy to swap out a set of gold pole screws for a set of nickel ones.

• ES 335 Pickup Timeline
• 1958-1961 Long magnet PAF. Rare in 61
• 1961(overlap)-1964 Short magnet PAF. Rare in 64
• 1962-1965 (rare)-Patent number enamel (purple windings) black leads always nickel covers. Identical to short magnet PAF except for sticker
• 1965-1969 Pre T-top poly (orange windings) black and white leads always chrome covers.
• 1966 (overlap)-1976 T-top with sticker. Later has embossed pat no.

• ES-345/355 Pickup Timeline
• 1958 (355 only)-1961 Long magnet PAF.
• 1961 (overlap)-1965 or later (rare, overlap) Short magnet PAF
• 1962-1965 Patent number enamel (purple) windings. Identical to short magnet PAF except for sticker
• 1965-1969 (overlap) Pre T-top poly windings
• 1966-1976 T-top with sticker. Later has embossed pat no.

The stop tail on the right is correct for 1958 to 1964. The one on the left is from the late 60’s. Look at the seam. The one on the right has a seam that is thicker in the middle and thinner everywhere else. The one on the left has a thick seam from end to end. Some repros have gotten this seam correct so you have to look for other features. The stud on the left is correct for the same years. Note the length.

In 2015, I wrote a post called “Scavengers” which is why this post is called “Scavengers II”. In 2015, the market was rising, as it is now and the cost of vintage parts came along for the ride. Changed parts have always been an issue on vintage items. Cars, furniture, virtually anything collectible that is made of components, is subject to changed parts both by unscrupulous sellers and by folks who simply can’t tell the difference between authentic parts and reproductions. What is different now, five short years later, is that the quality of the reproduction parts has gotten so good that it has become hard, even for experts, to tell the real from the fake.

Consider this: A vintage stop tailpiece for a 1958 to 1964 ES-335 will cost you around $1800. A really good reproduction will cost you about $100. You might spend $40,000 on your collector grade ’59 and never know that someone along the way has swapped out the vintage tailpiece for a good repro (or a bad repro for that matter). The likelihood is that you either won’t check to see if it’s real or you won’t know even if you do check. You’ll likely find out at the worst possible time-when you bring it to me or another knowledgable dealer to sell or trade. I can’t even count the number of times I’ve had to be the bearer of bad news of this kind. If the owner isn’t right there when I go through the guitar, it calls my honesty into question, especially if the guitar was bought from another reputable dealer. Fortunately, I make a point of checking the parts before the owner leaves the shop. If you’re buying or trading online, then it can be a real dilemma.

It’s not just the tailpiece either. Amber switch tips don’t cost $1800 but they get swapped out a lot. But even a $250 part can be a deal breaker. Certain parts have gotten really good. Stop tails, ABR-1 bridges, catalin switch tips, knobs, truss rod covers, pick guards, pickup surrounds even PAF stickers. I have mentioned in many previous posts that early 95% of the guitars I buy from individual sellers have an undisclosed issue. Fortunately, it’s usually something minor that I can address from my parts stash but sometimes I have to return a guitar due to something expensive like a repro stop tail and that’s going to be trouble in almost every case because somebody got cheated. “It was right when I sent it” is a pretty common response and I look like the bad guy. The hard part is figuring out who the criminal is if there is one. Usually, I’ll simply return the guitar to the seller if I can. The seller will obviously know if he is the culprit but if he isn’t, he has to consider the person he bought it from or he has to consider me. This is why reputation in this business is everything.

How do we, as dealers, minimize the problem? The best way is to ask for extensive photos. That means pulling the pickups, removing the tailpiece and bridge to show the underside and finding out where the seller acquired the guitar. I know which dealers are meticulous when they check out the guitars they sell and which ones don’t dig too deeply. Those who buy and sell without going through every part aren’t necessarily dishonest, they are simply lazy and that can have the consequences that are being discussed here. “I was too busy…” is a poor excuse. As a dealer, you should be busy authenticating the guitars you’re going to sell. But extensive photos won’t do you any good unless you know what to look for. I can tell a repro part from a real one from a clear photo with very few exceptions. Truss rod covers are tough as are switch tips. Knobs and pick guards can be tricky in a photo but are easy to tell in person.

My advice to sellers is to document every part with the same good photos you are supplying to your buyer. That way if a guitar comes back because of wrong parts you can compare what came back with what you sent out. Easy with metal parts, not so easy with plastic but the photos give you a fighting chance. Wear patterns are like fingerprints. Better yet, when you buy a “new” vintage guitar (and you aren’t an expert) use the approval period to take it to someone who knows what they are looking at to get a second opinion. At current market prices, you deserve to get exactly what you are paying for. Don’t immediately assume someone is trying to cheat you if a part is wrong. Everybody, even the experts, can get it wrong. But a dealer should go out of his way to make it right if that occurs. An individual seller should do that as well but if you aren’t buying from a dealer, go back and read the line about what percentage of guitars I get from individual sellers have an undisclosed issue.

Note the size of the “ears” on these two tailpieces. Both are correct but you’ll only see the shallow one on the left in very early 335’s. I’ve never seen one after 58. I see them on 50’s Les Pauls. But they are real-none of the repros are doing the shallow ears. Another feature that gives away a repro is hard to photograph but easy to feel. The top of the tailpiece should have a very slight hump or ridge. You can’t see it but you can feel it. It’s the first thing I check for when I get a guitar. No hump, no deal.

The 59 ES-355 mono was the big winner in 2019. They were under $20K in 2018 and have jumped to the mid $20’s or even higher if equipped with double white PAFs (and lots of them are). Want a bargain? Buy a 60. It’s the same guitar. Most 59’s have a transitional neck, not the big one. If you find one with a stop tail, sell it to me, please.

So, 2019 was, in general, another pretty good year for some 335’s and a great year for others but what about the rest of the line? 2018 wasn’t so great for 345’s unless it had the number 1959 in front of it. 2019 was pretty much the same. If you are looking for a 59 ES-345 sunburst (reds are rare in 59) or a 59 ES-355 mono, you paid more in 2019 than you did in 2018. I expect that trend to continue into 2020. We can dig a little deeper into the 59 cachet in another post. Truth be told, I don’t know why a collector grade 59 335 sells for around $45,000 and a collector grade 59 345 sells for around half that. 355’s follow the same rules, although the mono version commands a bit more and that’s where we’ll begin.

The mono 355 market was really strong in 2019 and I believe will continue to be that way. One factor that keeps 355’s mono well below the same year 335 is the Bigsby, so keeping apples to apples, we’ll look at the mono 355 compared to a Bigsby 335. A collector grade Bigsby 59 335 will cost you around $32,000. The same year 355 mono will be in the mid $20’s. If you’re OK with a Bigsby, that’s a bargain. A year ago, mono 59’s were still under $20K, so that’s a pretty good uptick. Stop tail 355’s are so rare, they live in a world of their own (all were special order). But anything from 59 seems to live in that rarefied place. Mono 355’s from 60 to 64 also were strong in 2019 although I sold very few of them. I think folks who use a Bigsby are getting the message that a mono 355 is a great alternative to the much higher priced 335’s.

The market for 60-64 345’s and stereo 355’s was not strong in 2019 and it surprised me. It was so weak in 2018 that I thought it had to come up in 2019. It didn’t. Asking prices have outpaced sale prices by 20% or more and folks just aren’t buying. It isn’t the dealers leading the charge here, it’s the individual sellers. I know, dealers ask stupid prices too but when you make your living moving guitars, you have to move guitars. 59’s are strong. First rack 345’s are incredibly strong-I can’t keep them for even a week and with good reason. They are great guitars. But once you get to 1960, it all goes a bit south. Of course, the thin necks are a factor although most players I speak to don’t mind the smaller profiles. I sold a 61 PAF equipped stop tail 345 last year (after months on the market) for $11500. Out of the ten or so 345’s I sold last year that weren’t 59’s, all went below $15K except for a double white PAF 60 ES-355 and a double white equipped 60 345. Again, these were mostly collector grade or, at the very least, no issue or very minor issue guitars. I used to be a purist about converting stereo guitars to mono but not any more. It’s reversible and it’s your guitar. Do what you want to make it a guitar you will play. A new harness will cost you $150-$200 and the labor should be under $200. Don’t forget to flip one of the magnets-stereo Gibsons have out of phase pickups.

I think, going forward, the sellers asking stupid prices for post 59 345’s and stereo 355’s will keep the market flat and even cause it to drop. Simply asking too high a price will affect the market negatively as the inventory soars and the demand stays the same or even falls. With 62-64 block neck 335’s so high, buyers might turn to same year 345’s which could strengthen that market. As I mentioned in Part 1, block necks are pushing through the mid $20K range and 345’s are just sitting there waiting for the smart buyer to jump in at $12K-$15K. Once you’ve converted your 345 or stereo 355 to mono, you are playing the same guitar that your friend with the 335 plays. The difference is that you have an extra $10,000 in your pocket that you can spend on that big tweed Bassman you have your eye on. Or, you can buy something nice for your wife who lets you indulge your childhood fantasy of being a rock star.

A 64 ES-345 is everything a 64 335 is. Don’t like the stereo circuit or the Varitone? Take it out (and flip one of the magnets). With 64 335’s pushing $25K, a 64 345 at $10K less looks like a bargain to me. All years from 60-64, if priced correctly for the market, are a great deal if original and well cared for.

Block inlays on a 335 will curl up, turn brown and fall out eventually. Most replacement pre cut inlays are very white and won’t match the ones that aren’t damaged. You can still get real celluloid but I’ve only seen it pre cut for Les Pauls.

It’s interesting (to me anyway) that I’ve written very little about the inlays in the ES line. I’m not sure how interesting a little piece of plastic (or other material) is to most of you but if it’s stuck into the fingerboard of an old Gibson, it’s pretty interesting to me. I find it noteworthy that this teeny little detail is the primary descriptor for 335’s. Most folks, if you ask about their vintage 335 will tell you what they have by describing the inlays. “I have 59 dot neck…” “I have a 62 block neck…” I can’t think of another guitar that is described in that manner. On the other hand, nobody says “I have a parallelogram 345…” perhaps because all of them are that way.

Typically, dot markers were used for the least expensive guitars by most manufacturers. Fender was notorious for taking the cheap way out and used dot markers in all of their guitars in the 50’s and well into the 60’s. Lower line builders like Harmony and Hagström used dots on nearly their entire lines as well. When Gibson introduced the 335 in 1958, it was considered (by Gibson) to be the bottom of a new line of semi hollow guitars. True to form, the 1958 335 got dots. The 1958 355 was next and got large block markers and when the 345 was launched in the Spring of 1959, it got something in between-the twin parallelograms that it still features. But, the 335 was not an inexpensive guitar by anyone’s calculations at the time. It was actually a rather expensive guitar when compared to its closest competitors. A 58 Stratocaster was around $200. A 58 335 was more than half again higher at $335. Apparently, there were complaints by consumers. I have no hard evidence of this; it’s one of those things that everyone seems to know. By the Spring of 62, the dots were gone, replaced by the small block markers we are all familiar with.

Another interesting aspect of the inlays in the ES line is the material. The dots, small blocks and parallelograms were all made out of the same celluloid material that was imported from Italy. The 355 markers were real mother of pearl (nacre) usually made from oyster shells. If you research other Gibsons from the era, you will find that the celluloid (plastic) inlays were ubiquitous from the Melody Makers to the Les Paul Standard. Mother of pearl was found only in the really high line stuff like Les Paul Customs and the pricey arch tops. Abalone shows up in Gibson/Epiphone Sheratons.

The problem with celluloid is that it deteriorates, especially in an oxygen starved environment (like a closed case). Shrinkage is the usual issue with inlays. The dots don’t really shrink much but the blocks (on a 335, not a 355) can curl up and fall out. They will also turn a pretty ugly brown color. The only solution to shrunken, curled inlays is to replace them. You can glue them back down if they aren’t too bad but they will eventually come back up. Celluloid doesn’t stick very well to modern glues. Gibson changed the formula for the plastic blocks in the mid 60’s and the problem, to a large extent, went away. The later blocks are brighter, smoother and more “toilet seat” looking. The 345 parallelograms will also shrink and fall out but they seem a bit more stable than the small blocks. The 355 inlays, being natural mother of pearl, don’t shrink, curl or come undone. I’ve never seen a 355 with a damaged inlay.

If you have a 335 with damaged, discolored or shrunken inlays, you can still get the proper material from Historic Makeovers (Retrospec) but they only sell Les Paul inlays, so you may need to do a little surgery. I suggest only replacing the inlays that are damaged or curled. You can get 335 inlays that are pre-cut but they won’t be the same plastic as the ones that are there now. Even if you get the real celluloid plastic, there is a pretty good chance that it won’t match the vintage ones due to decades of wear, oxidation and sweat. If your inlays are your biggest issue, then you don’t have big issues.

355 inlays stay the same and will do so over the course of the next few thousand years. Mother of Pearl is about as stable as anything on earth. 345 inlays are the same material as 335 blocks and they will shrink and turn brown but they don’t generally fall out. No idea why.

This is my main player. It’s an original finish blonde 1959 ES-345. It has had the neck replaced and a couple of holes filled. I don’t know what it’s worth but I know for sure it’s worth a lot less than it would be if it was all there.

I don’t usually comment on guitars for sale elsewhere but I came across a listing recently that brings up some interesting (and important) questions. I think we all agree that a refinished guitar is worth around half of what an original finish guitar is worth. Maybe as high as 60% in some cases and maybe lower but always in the neighborhood. But I recently came across a blonde 1960 ES-335 that was listed for $41,000. A blonde 60 with the original finish would sell for between $80,000 to $95,000 depending on condition and a few other factors (pickup bobbins, neck profile). So, $41,000 is a reasonable price. Or is it? The listing points out that the guitar was a factory blonde and I suppose that should count for something. But, a properly stripped sunburst 60 that has been refinished blonde would be, in theory, a $15,000 guitar. So, is the fact that the guitar left the factory as a blonde really worth an additional $26,000? Therein lies the dilemma.

Let’s look at it from a different perspective for a moment. Let’s say I have a refinished Stratocaster. It’s a sunburst 64 but it was originally surf green. Is the fact it was once surf green-a rare and valuable color-have any bearing on the value of it in its refinished state? If not, then if I refinish it again in surf green, is it worth more than it was as a sunburst? Or, conversely, if it was originally sunburst and has been refinished in a rare color is it worth more? Most of you (and me) would say no. Otherwise, we’d be refinishing refinished guitars and making a good living doing it.

So, what is refinished blonde ES-335 worth? Good question. To answer it I think you have to ask “what is it that I’m paying a premium for?” Let’s say the guitar as an instrument is worth whatever a refinished sunburst is worth-a refinished sunburst and a refinished blonde will be, ultimately, the same guitar from a players standpoint. As a collector’s piece, it’s value as an original (beyond the value as an instrument) is gone. I justify that by saying that a sunburst that has been competently refinished blonde looks exactly the same as a blonde refinished blonde. I’ll ask another question that might shed light…is a factory stop tail that has had a Bigsby added worth more than a factory Bigsby that has had a stop tail added? I would say they are worth the same. By that logic, the sunburst refinished blonde and the refinished blonde are worth the same.

I can confuse the issue even more. A blonde has only  clear lacquer. A sunburst has color and clear. A sunburst that has its original color but has been over-sprayed with clear is worth more than a total refinish. So, do we treat a refinished blonde that has always been blonde as an overspray?  Just a thought.

A few years ago. I had a client looking for a blonde 345. Blonde 345’s don’t come up for sale very often. They made 211 335’s in blonde but they only made 50 345’s. I was offered a refinished 60 ES-345 that was originally sunburst. The finish, while not perfect, was decent. There was some dark paint left in the routs and it would never be passed off as anything but a refinished sunburst. It sold for $20,000 which was way less than half the value of a blonde 345 at the time. But, and it’s a pretty big but, that $20,000 was a whole lot more than a sunburst 60 refinished in sunburst would have brought. I find that hard to justify but I don’t make the rules. I guess if you want a vintage blonde and you don’t want to pay a huge premium for it, then perhaps this makes sense.

So, I guess that a blonde that’s refinished blonde is worth more than a sunburst refinished blonde. But that begs the next question. Is a blonde refinished sunburst worth more than a sunburst refinished sunburst? I sure don’t think so but I’ve really just made a pretty good argument that it actually is. I think the key is the desirability of the end product. People want a blonde and will pay extra for it, regardless of its former configuration. If you had a truckload of refinished sunburst 59 ES-335s and you refinished them all in blonde, you would probably make money not that I suggest you do that.

This is making my head hurt. I’m going to go play a guitar for a while. There’s a blonde one around here somewhere.

Blondes will always command a premium. A blonde refinished blonde (with documentation) should be worth more than a sunburst refinished blonde…right?

This is 1959 harness. The bumblebees are the Mylar type. The black tubing was added except by the jack. Some harnesses have no insulation some do. It’s a crapshoot. These are Centralab pots-the date code is on the side on three of them. The fourth is also a Centralab but the code is on the top. Go figure.

OK, bad pun. Best I could do with the word harness. Electricity doesn’t know how old the parts are that it’s flowing through. If the values are the same, then the signal is the same. If the old parts have drifted, then the signal will change. I don’t usually measure the components in the harness when I get a guitar. If it sounds good and the pots work properly, I leave it alone. I have dropped new harnesses into a lot of guitars and I can’t say that a good new harness sounds any different than a good old one. Oddly (or, given the mindset of most of us vintage idiots, not so oddly) we will pay $1000 or more for a 58 or 59 date coded harness. I know, I’ve paid it. If you’re going to spend all that money to make your guitar right (or make your reissue closer to the real thing) you should know what’s in there.

There are four pots (you  knew that), two capacitors, a three way switch, a jack and a bunch of wire in a 335 or mono 355 harness. The pots in a 335/345/355 are 500K. There is a shielding can around three of them in a 345 and a stereo 355. The bridge pickup tone pot doesn’t get a can because it won’t fit (the pot is too close to the rim). So, don’t get your BVD’s in a bunch if your expensive 59 ES345 has only three cans. The capacitors have a value of .022uF. A 345 has the Varitone circuit-a two sided inductor (choke) and a 6 way switch with a load of resistors and capacitors (or two big multivalue chips). I’ve covered the Varitone in earlier posts so we’ll leave it alone.

Gibson used pots made by a few vendors and all the pots I’ve ever seen have a date code which is pretty useful if you don’t know what year your guitar was made. But keep in mind, a date code only shows you the oldest your guitar can be. You might find a 58 date code in a 60 guitar. You won’t find a 60 date code in a 58, however. Pot codes have 6 or 7 digits. Gibson generally used pots made by Centralab from 58 to 62. The three digit manufacturer code on a Centralab is 134. The next 3 or 4 digits are the week and the year. So a pot with the code 134832 would be the 32nd week of 1958. From 63 until 69 Gibson usually used pots made by CTS which have a 137 code. Same deal a pot with 137409 would be 9th week of 1964. Note that they added a second digit to the year in the 70’s to differentiate 60’s pots from 70’s and later. There were a few other manufacturers pots-mostly early on-that made their way into Gibsons. That’s another post.

The capacitors exert control over the tone pots. A higher number will be darker, a lower number will be brighter. The .022uF cap found in all ES non Varitone models is made by Sprague. The well known bumblebee (it has stripes, thus the name) cap was used from 1958 until around mid 1960. The Sprague “black beauty” (it’s, uh, black) was used from 1960 onward. I don’t know what they used in the 70’s. The very early ones (58 and early 59) are paper in oil type and the later ones are mylar. I don’t think it matters much except the paper in oil caps are supposedly more prone to drift. Any ES model with a shielding can used the same value cap but it was the disc type so it would fit inside the can. I’ve experimented with caps but since I usually have the tone control dimed, it doesn’t make any difference-the cap only affects the tone if the pot is backed off.

The three way switch was made by Switchcraft and is the long body type with a steel frame in a 335 and a brass frame in a 345 or 355. Brass is closer in color to gold, so that’s why they used the brass on guitars with gold hardware. The 1/4″ jack is also made by Switchcraft and is essentially the same today as it was in 1958. The wire is coaxial with a two strand braid on the outside and a cloth covered stranded wire on the inside. That about covers the “what”. The “why” is a longer story. Why 500K pots? I dunno. Why .022uF caps? Ask an electrical engineer.

Paper in oil bumblebees on the left. You can tell PIO from Mylar by the little filler at the top. The Sprague Black Beauties on the right are Mylar and don’t have the fillers.

I actually bought this one-advertised as a 64 or 65 ES-355. It turned out to have been re-necked in 69 or 70. Probably should have kept it anyway. It’s still a pretty cool guitar but I paid for one that was all original and this one wasn’t.

I spend a pretty fair amount of my time looking for the next guitar I’m going to buy (and sell). I search the obvious places like Reverb and Gbase and Ebay and Craigslist and I find lots of nice guitars-more often than not overpriced but some very nice guitars. I make offers, I ask questions, I do my homework in the hope that what I’m buying is actually what I’m getting. Sometimes, it can be pretty tricky like when Grandma is selling her long deceased husband’s guitar and has no idea what it is or when it was made. I try to be of assistance and I can almost always tell most of what I need to know from a few photos. But it’s always a crapshoot. I can’t really ask Grandma to break out the screwdrivers and check the PAF stickers for me or get me pot codes. So, you take your chances and try to minimize the risk any way you can. But I’m at a big advantage when it comes to 335’s and the like. I know what every year looks like pretty much at a glance. I can tell a real PAF from a fake at twenty paces and usually a repro tailpiece or bridge without having to turn it over. But what can you do if you haven’t seen enough 335’s to make an informed decision? Well, you can always ask me and, better yet,  you can get a return commitment so if something isn’t right, you can return it. But Grandma just wants to get paid and be done with it. I would never ask a seller for a return policy if it’s a non player selling a guitar he or she knows nothing about. But, every once in a while, I do something else and I’m always really hesitant to do it and I don’t do it that often. Sounds ominous, right? On occasion and not very often and only when the crime is so egregious, I can’t stand it…I am the internet guitar police. I admit it. Guilty with an explanation.

OK, so what does that mean? It means I see a guitar that’s listed as something it clearly isn’t and I feel compelled (that’s right compelled) to call out the seller and set him straight. Arrogant? I try not to be. Know it all? Well, you’re reading my stuff so I know more than you do (until you’ve read it all and then you can take over for me). It always feels like a really obnoxious thing to do but if I save some poor buyer from paying the price of a 62 for a 66 or buying a Chinese fake that’s breathlessly listed as “Gibson ES-345 Mono / Stop Tail 1967 Natural RARE!, then I think I’ve done some measurable good. The reason I decided to establish this blog in the first place was because so many listings were wrong about the year of the 335 they were selling. There are some very legitimate reasons for getting it wrong. They used the same serial numbers over and over from 65 to 69, sometimes as many as four times. And, even to the trained eye, a 65 doesn’t look all that different from a 67. I can point out about a dozen differences but they aren’t obvious to anyone who hasn’t studied them. So, I understand the difficulty and I generally don’t write to you to tell you that you have the year wrong, especially when the values aren’t all that different (like between a 66 and a 68). But if you tell me the PAFs on your Grandaddy’s 58 are original and I can see they are fakes, somebody is going to get hurt.

I’ve been called all kinds of names. “Dot neck snob” is a recent one. “Douchebag asshole” is another. “Know it all scumbag” and the like. On the other hand, I get as many as twenty emails a week asking me if the 335 being considered by you and not being sold by me is everything the seller says it is and is it a good deal? I answer every one of them. I want folks to get what they pay for. My offering up free advice is good business. Being nice and helpful is good business. Making sure a buyer has a good first experience with a 335 can often mean that same buyer will be coming to me later when it’s time to spend some very serious money on their next 335 (or the one after that). Happens all the time and I’m grateful for it. The other side of that is when I have to tell a 335 owner that the 62 he bought for $20,000 has fake PAFs and a repro tailpiece. “But the dealer told me it was 100% original…” or “but the seller said he bought it new and it was never worked on…” People forget. People lie. People get burned by the last seller and simply perpetuate the lies.

So there it is. I am the internet guitar police. Or I should say The Internet Guitar Police. Or at least for 335’s, 345’s and 355’s. I’ve mentioned before that around 90% of the guitars I get have an undisclosed issue that can’t be seen in photos. It’s usually something pretty minor and it’s usually not out of dishonesty-it’s out of a lack knowledge and of good information. That’s why I’m here. To help. Take down my badge number and know this… I’m watching.

This is the guitar that started me writing this blog. It was represented as a red 59. It had a cut center block (started in 61) and a few other oddities that caused me to go on my (now 8 year) crusade against misrepresented ES models.

Why is the guitar on the left worth twice what the one in the middle is worth? It’s a mystery but it’s the truth. An ES-345 no matter what year, is worth half of the same year 335. 355’s follow the same rule with the exception of the super rare stop tails.

I’ve mentioned many times that the vintage market for 335’s, 345’s and 355’s is “upside down” with the 335’s being worth around twice what the higher end 345’s and 355’s are worth. The good news for collectors and players who don’t have unlimited budgets is that it’s still “upside down”. When you consider that a collector grade (but not mint) 59 stop tail 335 will cost you between $35K and $40K, it is almost unbelievable that a 59 345 stop tail will cost you about half that. So, you’re saving $20,000 to endure the indignity of fancier bindings, fancier inlays and largely obsolete stereo/Varitone wiring. For around $200-$300, your can convert the electronics to 335 spec. The obvious next question is whether that hurts the vintage value or not. I can tell you from vast experience that it doesn’t as long as you keep all the original parts. You can be a purist and keep it stereo-it’s still a great guitar but if you’re buying a 345 because you don’t want to spend double for the same year 335, it’s a no brainer.

So, looking back at the 345 and 355 market for 2018, the news is mostly good. Like the 335, 59’s are still the benchmark especially the early “first rack” 345’s with the giant neck profile and unusual rout under the bridge pickup (short leg PAF-look it up). 59’s were up this year with first racks topping $20K and pushing $25K for excellent examples. Later ones (smaller neck, bigger rout) are approaching $20K. 59 355’s (Bigsby) were also really strong with big neck monos leading the way pushing into the $25K range. Lots of 59 355’s have smaller necks but the 59 year is still magic. The stereo 59’s are less than the monos but are also in the $20K range. Remember that stop tail 355’s are super rare and command a huge premium-double the price of a Bigsby. I only know of 12 of them.

What about the other years? 2017 was not a good year for 345’s. 60-64’s were pretty much stalled all year. 2018 was better but 61-64’s were still slow but showed a little appreciation. They are still a pretty tough sell. I’m not sure why but I can sell a half dozen 59’s in the time it takes me to sell one 61. You can get into a 61-64 345 or stereo 355 for $11K-14K-less if it has issues. That’s a bargain. The surprise, to me, of 2018 is the increase in popularity of 1960 ES-345’s. I see two reasons for this. The availability of the red finish is a big part of it. There are only 9 red 59’s and they are pricey, so if you want a long guard, long magnet PAF equipped red 345, the 60 is your only choice. I think the 60 345-red or sunburst-is currently the best bargain in this market. A collector grade early 60 will cost you in the $15K-$17K range. A little more if its mint (or has double whites or zebras which is relatively common in early 60). Yes, the neck profile is slimmer than an early 59 but an early 60 is identical to a late 59. So, are 59 bragging rights worth $5000 to you? Didn’t think so.  A later 60, which will have the very slim “blade” neck, will be even less. It will still have the long guard and the long magnet PAFs. The “transitional” 59/60 neck seems to slim down around the late Spring of 60. Look for A32xxx-A33xxx for the larger neck. No guarantees since the change in profile didn’t occur overnight but after A34000, they all seem to be very slim, like a 61.

I will make the further point that asking prices for 345’s and 355’s are all over the place. I’ve seen 61-64’s listed for close to $30K by sellers with big dreams and no sense of reality. It is human nature that most sellers think their guitar is worth way more than it will actually sell for and that hurts the market. On the other hand,  it helps sellers who ask fair prices; prices based on something more than wishes.

Lastly, let’s consider blondes since they were the big winner in the 335 market. All blonde 355’s were special orders so they are among the rarest of the rare. I’ve sold two in the past 10 years and I’ve seen only two others. Blonde 345’s were available from 1959 to 1960 but were made in very small numbers. Gibson made only 32 59’s and 18 60’s. After 60, they were special order only and I’ve seen one 61 and a few from the late 60s. I can’t tell you how blonde 345’s did in 2018 because none of them came on the market as far as I know.  My opinion is that they should be on a par with blonde 335’s. After all, there are four times as many blonde 335’s as there are blonde 345’s. I know a number of big collectors who own multiple blonde 335’s but have had no luck finding a blonde 345. My main player is a 59 blonde 345 (with some big issues) and I would have to say that a blonde 345 is my favorite guitar. Period.

What’s not to love? The 345 is a beautiful guitar that sounds as good as any guitar Gibson ever made. The blondes are big money but the sunburst and reds will cost you half what a 335 from the same year will cost. The middle one here is a finish called Argentine Grey. Rare but not popular. Got a black one? Lucky you. There are only 6 known.

This 58 was bought by a 24 year old. Who says millennials don’t buy vintage?

Got your attention now, don’t I? OK, nobody is dying but the conventional wisdom has been that the vintage market will die as soon as the baby boomers (born 1946-1964) stop buying guitars. Where did this so called conventional wisdom come from? Well, not from me, that’s for sure. It’s most likely the result of simple logic. Most of the folks buying guitars from the 50’s and 60’s are folks who coveted those guitars as teenagers. It’s the same logic that the vintage automobile market  clung to until it simply didn’t pan out that way. There is some truth to the logic but it isn’t the big picture.

I’ve been buying and selling vintage guitars for about twenty years now. I started back in the mid 90’s, when the internet and, specifically, Ebay, opened up a worldwide market . It was a hobby until around 2006 when I started getting serious and my main source of income since 2010. From the mid 90’s until now, it is absolutely true that my biggest and most frequent customers have been between the ages of 50 and 65. Interestingly, the age of the clientele stayed about the same between then and now. Of course, if you were 50 in 1995, you are now at the top end of that range and if you were 65, you are probably not buying guitars any more (or anything else for that matter). I believe those who subscribe to the conventional wisdom about the vintage market have their data correct but they have misinterpreted it. I believe it has more to do with disposable income than it has to do with what guitars you grew up wanting. At around age 50-55 a lot of things in your life can change. Your mortgage may be paid off, your kids are out of the house and you may have downsized, college expenses are finished and your income is higher than its ever been. It doesn’t take an economist to figure this out-you simply have more money to spend.

But it doesn’t end there. The belief that the generation behind the baby boomers won’t be interested in guitars from the 50’s and 60’s is faulty. Guitars from the 50’s and 60’s (and some 30’s and 40’s) are better instruments than most of them being made now. There is no doubt that there are some extremely good guitars being made today-especially from boutique builders. But the market still loves the classics and that’s what those conventional thinkers have missed. Disagree? here are some hard facts.

I sell around 100 guitars a year. I keep track of the demographics of who is buying what. The big surprise this year was that nearly half of the high end vintage guitars sold by me were bought by folks under the age of 50. That still means lots of 50 and 60 somethings are buying guitars but, as they say in the commercials, wait..there’s more. It’s a little nitpicky but i sold a lot of guitars to buyers in the range of 50-55. Now, I don’t ask everybody how old they are when they buy something but I get a pretty good sense of it from the conversations. Note that a 50 year old in 2018 is not a baby boomer. I sold six vintage guitars in November. Only one buyer was over 60. One was 24. Two were in their 40’s and two were in there 50’s. The demographics are very similar for the entire year. Last year was a bit different-more boomers. Same with the year before. So, is 2018 a fluke or a sustainable change in the market place? Stay tuned. I’m betting on the latter.

This stunning 59 didn’t go to a millennial but it didn’t go to a baby boomer either.