Another Less Than Stellar Variant: The ES-325
Here's a 1972 ES 325. It's a bit of a mutt. Made from 72-79
When the Norlin Corporation (Beer, Concrete) got into the guitar business by buying Gibson from CMI (Chicago Musical Instruments) in 1969, they didn’t waste a lot of time before slashing costs and quality. In 3 short years, they took the venerable ES-335 and turned it into a substandard, inconsistent shadow of its former self. As if that wasn’t bad enough, they took a page from the CBS/Fender school of Waste Not Want Not business practices. When they had too many of a certain part, they would make these Frankenstein guitars that were intended to use up extra inventory from the parts bin. Got too many mini humbuckers and no guitar to put them on? No problemo, let’s stick ’em on a 335-it worked on the old Epiphones so what the hell. These guys were so cheap, they actually cut costs by cutting only one f-hole. and speaking of f-holes, the Norlin Corporation also figured they could save some time by cutting another hole to make it easier to put the harness in and just cover it with a plastic control panel that looks a lot like the one they used briefly on the SG. Then, in another Fender-like time saving trick, they pre-wired the controls to the cover and just dropped it in. Everything-even the jack is on the plate. No fuss, no muss, no regard for ergonomics. I’m surprised they didn’t figure out a way to pre-wire the pickups onto the guard. Fender figured out how to do it, I’m surprised Gibson took the extra step of routing the body to accommodate the pickups.
Everything is right here-wired up in advance and just dropped in to a big ol' hole in the body. Nice.
They must have had a surplus of black Les Paul pickguards because with a little cut here and a rounded edge there, they had the guard for their new ES-325. I’ve seen them in walnut and red but I’ve never seen a sunburst. I’ve also seen one in natural but it could have been a refin but it could have been original The wiring is standard ES-335. The early ones had ABR-1 bridges and later, they showed up with the “harmonica” bridge. I haven’t had the honor of playing one but given that they were produced during an era when even Gibson’s best guitars were transformed into crap, this low end “parts bin special” was probably not such a great instrument. I’ve played decent 70’s Gibsons. They are out there but I wouldn’t buy one without playing it first. These, when they actually sell, appear to be in the $2000 – $2500 range. I think you can find a better instrument in that price range from the early 80’s. Personally, I would take a 90’s or a recent 335 over one of these. They are just too ugly for words and you know the build quality is going to be marginal at best.
Well, but the guitarist of “Kings of Leon” seems to like them… 😉
I’ve heard that and, as I’ve mentioned before, there are decent Gibsons from this era. He must have gotten one of the good ones. There were craftspeople at Gibson during the 70’s who were there during the “Golden Era” and they didn’t just forget how to make a quality guitar. They just weren’t given the time and materials to make them all good guitars. There’s also a kind of “reverse snobbery” among some musicians. I think it started with the 80’s Punk bands. They played inexpensive guitars to make a point. Danelectros were a favorite as were Fender Duo Sonics and low end Mosrites (Ramones, of course). You even saw the occasional Teisco. Also, it looks like the lead player is playing a block neck 335 in one video and an ES-137 in another, so it probably is more of a statement.
To each his own…but that thing is downright atrocious in my eyes.
I’m with you on that one, brother.
I’ve been playing my ’76 ES 325 with all original parts for years now and I love it. Alls it needed was a set up and some minor maintenance and it sounds and feels great…
I’ve been playing my ’76 ES 325 with all original parts for years now and I love it. Alls it needed was a set up and some minor maintenance and it sounds and feels great…
70’s Gibsons can be good but I think the good ones are the exception rather than the rule. Would you buy a 70’s Gibson without playing it first? I won’t but I will buy a 58-64 sight unseen.
Norlin Gibsons rule the trick is you have to play guitar good none of those cost cutting changes affected sound quality or playability but people are mad cause they don’t have what double pin stripes or who cares just play
It’s funny, I’ll bet if I told you I’d trade you my stoptail 64 for your Norlin, you’d take it. Norlins are great for the money-if you play it first to make sure it doesn’t weigh 12 lbs and the neck isn’t put on crooked. They are a good value and can be excellent for the money. We vintage guys are snobs but the truth is that if the Norlins weren’t so bad, there wouldn’t even be a vintage market. That’s how it began-everybody hated the “new” Gibsons in 1970. I know- I was there and I hated them. Big, ugly volute, three piece necks and various cost cutting measures that got worse every year made a lot of us look back to the old ones.
You people just use norlins subtle differences as an excuse to make your originals worth more money. That’s what makes a vintage market. The so called ugly volute is at the back of the neck so no one sees it. Personally I like the pocket as it seems to fit the hand in the low position. Not to mention the extra wood makes the neck resonate more and it makes em a little bit harder to break. Three piece neck? Oh no, the neck won’t warp now! Those seem like good changes really even if they did lose some of their soul. But hey a guitars only got the soul you put into it. I love Gibsons from the twenties up until now and one thing I’ve learned is you can find a gem in any era. But keep your eyes open some of them are norlin sleepers . Challenge you to a tone duel woth one if you like…
You people??? It’s just me here. One man band. You got a problem with the blog, then you got a problem with me. No “you people” to be found (are you Ann Romney?). Tone duel you say? I’ve played ’em all and I’d put my 64 or my 59 up against any Norlin ever made. You’d have to play both of them and decide because after 48 years of playing, I still suck. If you’ve found a good Norlin, then you’ve saved some big money and you should be a happy camper and yet, you’re not, Grasshopper.
I guess you have an axe to grind (pun intended) against Norlin era Gibby’s.
How can you put down a guitar you haven’t even played? I bought an es325 back around ’85, Cherry Wine, and have been in love ever since! I did play it, first, and loved it. The 325 has a unique sound to it, thanks to those mini humbuckers, semi-hollow construction which is actually in between a 335 and 330 (it has a center block running from the bridge to the tail). It has a bright, resonant quality, with enough balls to rock. The fretboard IS pretty narrow, like the early 70’s SG standard I had. Probably not great for fat fingers, but as a matter of preference, my little fingers like it just fine. I also own a ’79 ES 335 pro, a ’64 ES 330, a couple newer Les Pauls, a pair of flying V’s, a later model SG, and a Strat. At the end of the day, though, if I had to sell off all my guitars except for one, the 325 would stay. Just because Norlin were experts at cost cutting (maybe ahead of their time- seems like everybody’s doing it now), it doesn’t mean the craftsmen at Gibson forgot how to build guitars.
Hell, I’d say they did a very nice job, considering they were building a guitar from spare parts. It truly is a wonderful instrument. So, bottom line, all I’m saying is, once again, don’t knock it ’till you tried it! Thanks and have a nice day!
Norlin may have been experts at cost cutting but they knew zip about guitars. The beer and cement conglomerate was purportedly run by a bunch of bean counters who didn’t know anything about the business they were running. They could cut costs all right but they ruined what was perhaps the most brilliant design in guitar history. There were still workers who could put out a fine instrument (they didn’t fire everybody on day one) but they were forced to make design changes that only served to make the guitars less consistent and less reliable. The wood got cheaper and heavier, the body shape changed, the electronics were downgraded and the workers were expected to crank out more guitars more quickly. That may be the epitome of cost cutting brilliance in the corporate world but it made for some pretty crappy guitars. You may have a wonderful 325. I’m sure they exist. I would never, under any circumstances, buy a 70’s Gibson without playing it first. I buy 50s and 60s Gibsons every week without playing them and I’m happy 98% of the time.
I’ve had a 70-72 es335 for 30 or more years. It plays and sounds better than any guitar I’ve tried.
I believe you. While I deride the 70’s Gibsons a bit, there are some really good ones and some terrible ones. The problem is you have to look pretty hard for a good 70’s 335. A 58-68 is almost always going to be a good one. I’ve played a 70 that rivaled most of the early ones.
I own a pretty much mint condition Cherry Red 325 and it plays and sounds amazing.
I never even considered it a downgraded 335. I took it on its own merits.
When I saw it, it had the 335 shape but everything else was kind of different.
If I had known more I am not sure I would have felt any different as I judged it purely on how it played and sounded.
The whole vintage guitar thing is funny.
I am sure every guitarist would love to own an early Les Paul, 335, Strat or Tele but is the price difference between a 1964 335 and a 2012 335 warrant the price the difference? Up to the player’s ears and wallet to decide.
Anyhow, I wouldn’t be surprised if (due to the popularity of the Kings of Leon) that the 325 gets a reissue.
I’ve played cheap Asian Epiphone imports that played great. Price was something like $600. Of course I had to play every Epiphone in the store before I found one that played decently. Setup is a major factor in how a guitar plays and sounds. Quality of materials counts as well (which is why vintage often sounds better than new). Finally build quality (which is the least consistent or so it seems) plays a role as well. Nothing wrong with a 325 from a design standpoint. It’s the build quality, like many 70’s Gibsons, that often defines them.
Hey Man,
This is a really unethical webpage, to my mind. You actually took the time to build a page condemning a guitar model that you HAVE NOT PLAYED? I have an ES-325 that sounds fabulous, and I know a lot of people, experienced people, who have similar experiences. Your observations about the cost-cutting practices of Norlin are valid, and the inconsistent build quality of the era is well known. However, you really ought to think twice before posting a page that damns a guitar model you have no experience with. It undermines your credibility.
Get over yourself. Also take the time to re-read the post. I don’t condemn the guitar and I mention I never played one. In fact, I say this: “I haven’t had the honor of playing one but given that they were produced during an era when even Gibson’s best guitars were transformed into crap, this low end “parts bin special” was probably not such a great instrument”. I have since played two of them. One totally sucked and the other just kind of sucked. Any guitar model has a range and you must have been fortunate enough to get a good one. In an era when most used guitars are bought without playing them, I would think twice before buying any 70’s Gibson without playing it first. A 325, along with a lot of 70’s Gibsons, is going to be a crapshoot. Had I condemned it without playing AND didn’t mention that I hadn’t played one, then I would be unethical. But then you wouldn’t know I hadn’t played one.
I like mine. It definitely has a cool vibe to it – meaning that when I pick it up I don’t want to
put it done. I am going to swap out the pickups for some Seymour Duncan Mini Antiquitys – those Firebird mini-hums aren’t as rich as the regular humbuckers. The plastic electronics panel
is going to make that job real easy – pickup replacement in a proper 335 is a little more challenging but still
a lot of fun. If you want to deride the Norlin design on the downfalls of penny pinching examine any Fender product and you will
find the epitome of mass production, efficiency and cheapness. They still made some great guitars. I ocassonally find myself absorbed in the sickness of guitar collecting when I should be playing. Maybe I should just buy shoes – they’re cheaper.
While you can’t play the blues on a pair of oxfords, similarly, you can’t walk very well with a guitar strapped to your feet. It’s a real dilemma.
I have 2 of these, a `72 & `74 and our lead guitarist has an ES-335. We both agree that they both play and sound better than his. I love how thin the neck is at the nut. The easiest Gibsons to play in my opinion and i`ve had a good few! As for looking atrocious, i can think of much worse designs.
Me too. Like the Sonex, the L6S, the Marauder, the US-1, the reverse Vee, the holy Explorer. No shortage of bad Gibson designs over the years. The 325 does not rank anywhere near those in the ugly category.
I found a Gibson ES 325 just like the one in the picture on this link.
the pickups are not original and the tuning keys are not original but I think
everything else is. The guitar is in good condition and the guy I planing on buying it from knows that it’s not all original he bought it that way.
I’m thinking about buying it could you give me idea what you think it might
be worth.
First, thanks for your insight on the history of the 325, and I agree with the sentiment that it’s a cheapo part-bin excuse for a 335. But when I bought my ’78 15 years ago I sure didn’t have two grand for the used 335 that I really wanted, so I was happy enough to take home this used 325 for 800 bucks. Hey, it was even described by the sales dude as a ‘discount 335’. (An honest salesman? What next?) I knew nothing about the history of Gibson or of the 325 until just today when out of the blue I decided to do some online research. Well, none of the negatives I’ve just learned do anything to diminish my affection for my 325. Hell, 15 years on and I still can’t afford a ‘proper’ 335, and anyhow my playing sucks worse than its build quality. It fits my girly-man hands perfectly and is a joy to play, so I’m keeping it. Best feature it has is the Gibson name lending me some cred with all the people that don’t know the back story. “Ooh, nice old Gibson, mate!”
Me again — I said mine was a ’78, but that’s probably wrong now that I’ve looked at some pics on various sites. It’s got the ABR-1 bridge you mentioned as fitted to early models and pearly greenish keystone tuners that say ‘Gibson Deluxe’ vertically. How can I tell the year? Can’t find a SN anywhere. Any idea where it’s hidden?
Gibson Deluxe tuners started in 68 but tuners and lasted into the 80’s. So, that doesn’;t help us. There should be a serial on the back of the headstock. If there isn’t, then the guitar may have been renecked or somebody sanded off the serial. There was no serial number on the purple and white Norlin labels that they started using in 1970. If you email me a photo, I might be able to tell you what it is, although the 70’s are kind of all over the place in terms of features.
I own two of these, a 72 & 74 (along with 30 other various fenders and gibsons, including 335’s) and can honestly say they are both up there in the best playing and sounding in my collection. Really thin nut width and low action with fat frets. They play theirselves almost! Don’t knock em till you’ve tried em trust me!
Some are great. Some are crap. My advice is always play a 70’s before you buy it. Not necessary with a 58-64, although it’s still good idea.
You can’t beat 58-64 for consistency but they are very expensive. On the other hand, they hold their value.
I absolutely love my E.S. 325. I’ve played plenty of 335’s and they just can’t compare with my ‘parts bin special’ 325. This guitar is over 40 years old and the finish is pristine; the mini humbuckers sing like a Firebird and the thin neck is perfect for my stubby, but nimble fingers. Yes; it’s ugly; but in a unique way and it’s build like a brick s_ithouse. A pox on you sir for ruining my day. I look at my Norlin Gibson and think: “mmmmmmm Chocolate”.
I loved the 325 when I could find them for 1100 -1500 bucks (or less) ..then they were a good value and I could even put up with the hideous FUGLY ….(Part of the reason we love Gibson guitars is that they are beautiful,.Even those of us who can play a little bit. Even those who wont admit it know this) But for 2500 ? Laughably I’ve seen people trying to sell them for more than that…..The whole “Kings of Leon” nonsense drove up the price. OK the KOL were a flash in the pan the prices should come back down now : ) ..Then again even those super ugly early 70’s SG’s are selling for a little more now – if they are actually selling to anyone..I haven’t seen anyone actually playing one in over 40 years ..If I can find a 325 for 2 Grand or less I might still buy it, If its a very good player. Not one for cent more though. No way
OK, I came here to find more info from 325 aficionados and see your rentless defense of a guitar you’ve never seen, played or heard. Just wow. I just traded a Custom Shop 335 for an excellent example of Norlins entry into the quality/budget race of the 70’s. It’s truly a better guitar than you’ll ever imagine. It’s my ‘one that got away’ guitar and I’m happy to have another.
Interesting thread, so I’m reviving it.
As a strat player mainly, and fan of single coils, I was looking for a semi hollow that didn’t use standard humbuckers. I’ve always loved the look and feel of early Gibson ES’s and love the bite and attack of mini humbuckers found on the ES325’s.
I was lucky enough to pick one up the other day – a 72 Walnut, blackbinding, gold purfing etc, all original and in remarkable almost new condition.
While some of you may knock the build quality in the 70’s Gibsons, I can honestly say it’s one of the most well built and stable instruments I have played, far superior to newer Gibsons today imo. Perhaps I got very lucky?
There are some very unique things about it: Nearly straight vintage headstock (hardly any rake back), thinner and faster neck, super low string profile as standard, jumbo frets, early ABR bridge not the later harmonica bridge (mine is screwed directly into the body and sustains amazingly well), bright maple neck, black binding, gold purfing, build quality is custom shop level. Mine is incredibly stable, great for studio and live session as it simply refuses to go out of tune. It’s an amazing instrument.
For anyone reading these comments before pulling the trigger on one of these – They’re not to everyone’s tastes yes, and yes I imagine there are are god awful ones around just like any other guitar. But if you find a good one, the ES325 is a diamond in the rough.
I purchased my ES 325 at a pawn shop back in the early 80’s for $175. Couldn’t afford the Strats and LP’s at the time so I settled for the 325. It has since become my favorite guitar out of my collection of over 20. Maybe I have a Kings of Leon freak but this guitar is amazing. The super comfortable fast slim neck profile allows for hours of pain free playing and at higher volume, this 325 has that sonic feedback edge that turns it into a beast. Always stays in tune regardlesss how hard I push it and trouble free from day one.
I stumbled on this thread searching for another similar guitar and I think maybe a Gibson Byrdland would be an option.
Thank you Gibson ….I love my 325 “Mutt”
I’ve had mine, a ’72, since I bought her new in 1976, and she was pretty much my only good guitar up until early 00s. The case is long gone, it fell apart, my son bought me a new hardshell case for her, a 335-style I believe. Neck is thin and slim which is good for my developing arthritis. Weight is good. Drawback is easily feeds back at higher gains due to no block, but really good for jazzy/medium gain blues stuff.
I replaced the trapeze bridge with a stop tailpiece, the tuners with Grovers to replace the bent-up ones, and the pickups with SD Quarter Pounder minihums for some more grunt and she plays and sounds great.
I’ve become paranoid about gigging her anymore, too much sentimental value to have her stolen by some a**hole.
After nearly 50 years the tone has mellowed, but man she can still scream! I’ve worn a stripe into the side of the neck where my thumb rests. I love that guitar, of all my guitars my wife wants to keep her after I’m gone. The rest of my stuff goes to my nephew.